Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Wadkin PK Generations

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Wadkin PK Generations

    Hi all this PK has been for sale in england for about two years from a machine company. I was just looking at the pictures of it and noticed some differances from mine. The body of the saw where right handwheel attaches is differant and their is a bolt sticking out of the body below where the table wing is. Is this and early one? did wadkin alter there design through production.

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wadkin-PK-...item23281f6ebe
    www.wadkinrestorations.co.uk
  • Thread Continues Below...

  • #2

    Re: Wadkin PK Generations

    Re: PK with differances

    Matty snagged a 1926 wadkin machinery catalog. In it was the Wadkin PK in its first generation.
    He sent me a scan.
    Looks like a lot was changed over the years and I thought I would post to your thread Mark for the Wadkin lovers. looks like a PK but handles and gauges as well as the way the table slides has changed. Not a bad saw for the 20s.
    This is one of the first saws to have electric drives in England. Arthur has the PJ a modle that was motor driven and very old too. But the PK has a tilting abour where Arthurs does not. There was the PL a 2 arbour line belt saw that help in the P line of saws by wadkin and shared PK parts as well


    I see 3 generations
    Generation one

    In this first model the sliding table runs on ball bearing tracks like an older Olivers. The Double miter does not look to have presets, and the table do not have wood lips. The blade flask is thin and i do not see a riving knife. The rise and fall handle crank is on the side and the electric are built into the main.




    Generation 2
    The sliding table is reworked to have adjustments for tuning free board cuts to the slider and runs roller bearings on inlaid steel tracks milled into the table. Wood lips are added to the right and left of the blade and the machine can run molder heads.A riving knife and The Blade flask is deepened to cover the cutter block or trenching heads. The miter gauges have been work and an etched scale with preset is on the slider. the miter gauge is a full 180 dregs of rotation. the rise and fall remains on the side. The rise and fall lock moves to the crank handle shaft from the bull gear shaft up front in model 1. Matty can you Date this cut?







    Geration 3
    The rise and fall crank move up front with the lock in the center of the crank. and the motors are larger with and increses in deth of cut of 1/2 "


    I would like to have the oldest one but would take any one of them.
    jack
    English machines
    everyone knows real machines are 3 phase. Founding member of the Wadkin blockhead club

    jack
    English machines

    http://www.youtube.com/user/tool613

    Comment


    • #3

      Re: Wadkin PK Generations

      Re: PK with differances

      Interesting stuff Jack, the saw I linked to is a wierd one. It doesn't fit. The fine adjuster is the older one. The canting handle is on the front but the lock is on the shaft
      www.wadkinrestorations.co.uk

      Comment


      • #4

        Re: Wadkin PK Generations

        Re: PK with differances

        Originally posted by jgarrett forsberg View Post

        I see 3 generations
        Generation one

        In this first model the sliding table runs on ball bearing tracks like an older Olivers. The Double miter does not look to have presets, and the table do not have wood lips. The blade flask is thin and i do not see a riving knife. The rise and fall handle crank is on the side and the electric are built into the main.




        Generation 2
        The sliding table is reworked to have adjustments for tuning free board cuts to the slider and runs roller bearings on inlaid steel tracks milled into the table. Wood lips are added to the right and left of the blade and the machine can run molder heads.A riving knife and The Blade flask is deepened to cover the cutter block or trenching heads. The miter gauges have been work and an etched scale with preset is on the slider. the miter gauge is a full 180 dregs of rotation. the rise and fall remains on the side. The rise and fall lock moves to the crank handle shaft from the bull gear shaft up front in model 1. Matty can you Date this cut?







        Geration 3
        The rise and fall crank move up front with the lock in the center of the crank. and the motors are larger with and increses in deth of cut of 1/2 "

        Hi Jack.

        I'm new to Wadkins machines, but have been hanging around woodplanes (the hand powered variety) for several years. USA made Stanley planes have all been catalogued into types - and the years each type was produced - by enthusiasts like us.

        There's scope for that here too with Wadkin PKs. I would like to suggest at least one more generation (or sub-generation), between the "Generation 2" and your own beautiful "Generation 3" machine. That's the model wallace and I have. Almost the same arrangement as yours but with cast iron: blade flask; handwheels; electrical overload cabinet door; etc. No lock in the centre of the crank. Etc. Maybe Generation 3a and 3b - but I'm sure there will be some more steps between Generation 2 and yours.

        Food for thought.

        Cheers, Vann.
        Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club.

        Comment


        • #5

          Re: Wadkin PK Generations

          Wadkin PK Generations

          Looking a little further at the development of the PK:

          If we start with Jacks Generation One and Two

          Generation One has:
          • Thin blade flask;
          • Ball bearing tracks for slider table;
          • Single mitre fence?
          • No presets for mitre fence;
          • Mitre fence stops mount on steel rod;
          • Sprung pin for table slider lock;
          • Height adjusting wheel on front;
          • Cant adjusting wheel on RH side;
          • Cant lock on bull gear.


          Generation Two has:
          • Blade flask widened;
          • Wooden blade liners added;
          • Riving knife added?
          • Ball bearing races for slider table;
          • Double mitre fence introduced?
          • Mitre fence stops mount of steel bar;
          • sprung pin for slider lock (G1);
          • Height adjusting wheel on front;
          • Cant adjusting wheel on RH side;
          • Cant lock moves to crank wheel shaft.


          Robs PKA 390 and his friends PKA 405 are the oldest known surviving PKs. They appear to be transitional models, transitioning from Generation One to Generation Two,
          with mostly Generation One features, but Generation Two ball bearings arrangement on the slider.

          Now to insert a new Generation Three which has:
          • Wide blade flask (G2);
          • Wooden blade liners (G2);
          • Ball bearing races for slider table (G2);
          • Toggle pin for slider lock;
          • Height adjusting wheel on front (G1);
          • Cant adjusting wheel moved to front;
          • Overload door marked “BROOKHIRST” etc, and with reset knob.


          My own PKA 800 (of 1946) fits this generation.

          Note that in moving the cant wheel to the front the three gear shafts each mount in separate castings (two in bolt-on covers), probably retaining the G1/2 base casting

          Click image for larger version

Name:	G3CantOS.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	54.6 KB
ID:	914948 exterior of Pfakir's G3 PKA 785

          Click image for larger version

Name:	G3Cant.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	25.9 KB
ID:	914947 interior of my own G3 PKA 800

          Back to Jack – but his third generation now becomes Generation Four, featuring:
          • Wide blade flask – cast aluminium;
          • Wooden blade liners (G2);
          • Ball bearing races for slider table (G2);
          • Toggle pin for slider lock (G3);
          • Height adjusting wheel on front – cast aluminium;
          • Cant adjusting wheel on front – cast aluminium;
          • Cant lock moves to centre of cant wheel;
          • Cant wheel, worm, etc all moved to a single, new, bolt on cover, necessitating a revised base casting;
          • New overload door – cast aluminium. Marked “Wadkin” “Controls” & “ISOLATE MACHINE BEFORE REMOVING COVER”


          Click image for larger version

Name:	Jacks Cant.jpg
Views:	2
Size:	69.9 KB
ID:	914949 exterior of Jack's G4

          While researching this post I couldn't find a photograph of the interior of a Generation Four PK showing the cant gear assembly, but I believe all shafts are mounted on the back of the one bolt-on cover. This enlarged cover has necessitated a revised main casting.

          It would appear that Generation Four PKs are by far the most numerous.

          Cheers, Vann.
          Last edited by J Vann; 08-16-2015, 07:25 AM. Reason: error in G2 re: grooving head, removed
          Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club.

          Comment


          • #6

            Re: Wadkin PK Generations

            Dating Wadkin PK Generations

            As I've been reading through various threads on PK saws - here, on the Aussie forum, and at UKworkshop - I've begun to make note of the machine numbers.

            I started with what I've dubbed Generation Three machines (as that's the generation of mine). I've noted five so far, and with the help of wallace1973 (who has provided dates via the test numbers) it appears Generation Three PKs were in production from at least 1940, to at least 1948. And at least 441 G3 saws*.

            PKA 554 of 1940 (Test 14594) - BrianG (Ireland);
            PKA 725 of 1944 (Test 22583) - Danemp (Scotland > Canada);
            PKA 785 of 1945 (Test 24671) - Pfakir (Australia);
            PKA 800 of 1946 (Test 25031) - Vann (New Zealand);
            PKA 994 of 1948 (Test 30253) - (ebay UK).

            I'll keep looking and keep noting numbers of the various generations.

            Cheers, Vann.

            * note: I've seen a couple of comments suggesting G3 saws as being a transitional stage. With 441 saws (min.), and assuming Wadkin numbering started at 100 or 101, then with 441 saws G3 is just ~12 short of the entire G1 and G2 combined (453 saws max.). I think this justifies these saws having their own generation
            Last edited by J Vann; 08-16-2015, 09:22 PM. Reason: Brian G moved to Ireland from Aussie :)
            Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club.

            Comment

            • Thread Continues Below...

            • #7

              Re: Wadkin PK Generations

              Re: Dating Wadkin PK Generations

              The blade flask material changed from cast iron to aluminium as well, Also the bolts that secure the blade flask changed from being pinned into lugs cast in the main frame to separate steel blocks that could be removed. Early ones shared the same fence as the pj
              www.wadkinrestorations.co.uk

              Comment


              • #8

                Re: Wadkin PK Generations

                Re: Dating Wadkin PK Generations

                J Vann

                https://forum.canadianwoodworking.co...Wadkin-PK-tags

                here are some more tags. At some point in time between Jacks and mine they changed the indication needle from brass to the metal bent bar.
                For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
                Sir Isaac Newton.

                Comment


                • #9

                  Re: Wadkin PK Generations

                  Re: Dating Wadkin PK Generations

                  Originally posted by wallace1973 View Post
                  The blade flask material changed from cast iron to aluminium as well...
                  Yup, caught that

                  Originally posted by J Vann
                  • Wide blade flask – cast aluminium;
                  Originally posted by wallace1973
                  Also the bolts that secure the blade flask changed from being pinned into lugs cast in the main frame to separate steel blocks that could be removed.
                  You'd be meaning this change came in with all the other aluminium casting of G4? Unfortunately that's not something that can easily be detected from photographs of complete saws - so thanks for that.

                  Originally posted by wallace1973
                  Early ones shared the same fence as the pj
                  It would be good to work out when the PJ fences were changed (G2?, G3?).

                  Originally posted by Matt Matt
                  At some point in time between Jacks and mine they changed the indication needle from brass to the metal bent bar.
                  I had noticed different needles, but not tried documenting that. I figured they were probably user modifications? Thank for the link to the Wadkin-PK-tags thread - I went looking for that several times over the weekend, but got distracted by other threads everytime .

                  Thanks for your input guys. Much appreciated. I'll update the generational changes from time to time as more info comes to hand.

                  Cheers, Vann.
                  Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club.

                  Comment


                  • #10

                    Re: Wadkin PK Generations

                    Re: Dating Wadkin PK Generations

                    Originally posted by Matt Matt View Post
                    Heck Matt. Lots of pictures of tags, but very few pictures of the machines they're off, so I can't work out what generations they fit into. I'll start a search of each owner - then if they've posted a thread on their PK I'll be able to check the photographs. I should get a few that way.

                    Cheers, Vann.
                    Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club.

                    Comment


                    • #11

                      Re: Wadkin PK Generations

                      Re: Dating Wadkin PK Generations

                      Heres the last pk I did. The crown guard and fence are from an earlier model. The fence has pj in the castings

                      Test 55676
                      1956





                      Heres the first pk I did

                      Test 54421
                      Also 1956





                      This one I bought just for the crown guard as you do!

                      Test 17392

                      1941





                      I've got another pk but its missing its tags
                      www.wadkinrestorations.co.uk

                      Comment

                      • Thread Continues Below...

                      • #12

                        Re: Wadkin PK Generations

                        Re: Dating Wadkin PK Generations

                        Originally posted by wallace1973 View Post
                        Heres the last pk I did. The crown guard and fence are from an earlier model. The fence has pj in the castings

                        Test 55676
                        1956

                        That's interesting...

                        PK 1982: not tested until 1956 (test 55676);
                        PK 1887: not tested until 1956 (test 54421);
                        but the much later built (assuming so from the PK number) PK 2259 was tested in 1955 (test 52122)

                        Can we assume from that, that in the 1950s Wadkin had a warehouse full of completed PKs, with testing not occurring until they were sold? Last machine in (nearest the door) being the first one out?

                        I'm enjoying this research (even if it is confusing sometimes)

                        Cheers, Vann.
                        Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club.

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          Re: Wadkin PK Generations

                          Re: Dating Wadkin PK Generations

                          Vann not Really because wadkin sold refurbished machines too and I think Dave's is one that's put together from old parts as well. While the PP was to replace the PK the PK and the PKF continued to be manufactured under special order so there is going to be some anomalies.
                          everyone knows real machines are 3 phase. Founding member of the Wadkin blockhead club

                          jack
                          English machines

                          http://www.youtube.com/user/tool613

                          Comment


                          • #14

                            Re: Wadkin PK Generations

                            Generation Five?

                            When jean266 posted his PK 2259 (the highest number so far - if not the latest tested) https://forum.canadianwoodworking.co...g-my-Wadkin-PK and I checked out the pictures, I thought we had a new generation - going by the long ripping fence.

                            But then I saw that PeterG has PK 1882 with the same fence, made nearly 400 PKs earlier (if serial numbers can be believed).

                            Click image for larger version

Name:	PK G5 PeterG3.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	39.7 KB
ID:	915003 Click image for larger version

Name:	PK G5 PeterG7.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	37.4 KB
ID:	915004 these are, without doubt, PK parts

                            I haven't yet asked wallace1973 for a date for PeterG's saw, but as it is just five numbers lower than wallace's first PK 1887 of 1956, it may well have been tested and sold much later than its serial number suggests.

                            Theories?

                            1) They're both rebuilds, from a time when the original fence patterns were lost, so new, simpler patterns were made; or
                            2) These were amoung the last in stock and had been ratted for parts (specifically rip fence parts), so new, simpler patterns were made; or
                            3) The long fence was a late option, available for specific requirements.

                            More food for thought.

                            Cheers, Vann.
                            Proud member of the Wadkin Blockhead Club.

                            Comment


                            • #15

                              Re: Wadkin PK Generations

                              Re: Generation Five?

                              To make it a little more confusing Wadkin did custom work too . It's my belief that Mr. Wallace's is an experimental saw to which Wadkin also was known to do. The PK development was all about these subtle changes to the frame Or additional fence features miters extended tables and all of these features don't necessarily date any machine Because they could be ordered later. there's also hundreds of other machine refurbishers to which Dalton the current owner of Wadkins was well known for. You'd really have to look at the PCL tags to determine what happened near the end during the Robinson group take over. I did notice on peters PK the fence but he is missing the extended table it would make sense for ripping plywood to have a fence such as his. PK part numbers 134 and 135 are not old numbers.

                              It's my belief that wadkin develop machines and thus changed Or added new castings made possible new designation through experimentation in fact the very first Models of the PP contained PK parts and we have two members here that have direct drive PK interiors. It makes sense to me that what wadkin would experiment with the PK first and develop and market For extended tables and other features before fully developing a production run of the PP belt drive fully developed saw. It was a way for Wadkin to reduce the risk of a bran new machine and the marketing behind It.
                              Last edited by jgarrett forsberg; 08-17-2015, 05:20 PM.
                              everyone knows real machines are 3 phase. Founding member of the Wadkin blockhead club

                              jack
                              English machines

                              http://www.youtube.com/user/tool613

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X